Tuesday, June 4, 2013

Facebook discussion on Cow Slaughter

  • "जिस देश के नागरिक अपनी संस्कृति पर गर्व करना भूल जाते हैं.. उस देश का पतन निश्चित है."

    गाय केवल एक पशु नहीं.. भारतीय संस्कृति का हिस्सा है. स्वाद के लिए संस्कृति को मत खा जाइए.

    • Abhinav Kimothi But it tastes so good 
      Yesterday at 3:59pm via mobile · Like · 1
    • Anand Shankar Mishra Abhinav किमोठी... बलात्कारियों को भी ऐसा ही लगता है... उनका कृत्य सही नहीं होता लेकिन.
    • Abhinav Kimothi Lol! Arey Bhai ye to tum slippery slope argument de rahe ho... Beef khaane mein aur rape karne mein to bahut difference hai... Kal ko tum kahoge ki chicken khana chhod do... Parson kahoge kela khana chhod do... Arey khana chhod denge to jiyenge kaise Bhai?
    • Anand Shankar Mishra ये "स्लिप्पेरी स्लोप" तर्क नहीं है ... आपने मज़े (स्वाद) की बात की थी.. सो कहा .. 

      क्या आप जिंदा रहने के लिए बीफ खाते हैं? 
      और मैं आपसे कतई नहीं कहूँगा की केला खाना छोड़िये.. खूब खाइए केला जम के.. बीफ से ज्यादा जिंदा रहने में मददगार साबित होगा केला...

      जिंदा रहने के लिए अपनी माँ का अंग काट कर खाना ये संस्कृति नहीं सिखलाती .. यहाँ तो शिबि जैसे राजा हुए जिन्होंने कबूतर के प्राण बचाने को खुद का अंग काट दिया था...

      कुतर्क मैं आपसे करना नहीं चाहता कि "भाई तुम भी तो घास खाते हो.. उसमें जान है.. छोड़ दो" .. बात यहाँ जान की नहीं .. बात है संस्कृति की.
    • Abhinav Kimothi Sanskriti? Kaunsi sanskriti? Ab gai khaane mein kaunsi sanskriti hai Bhai? Aur maa ka ang? Meri maa gai nahi hai insaan hai...
      Aur gai to Hindu sanskriti hui na.. Hindustani sanskriti aur Hindu sanskriti mein farq hai... 
      Ye sab logon ko aapas mein ladwaane ki baatein hain... Chhod do inhe... Insaan ko jeene do... Jo gai khana chahe wo gai khaye... So suar khana chahe wo suar... Aur Jo kela khana chahe wo kela... Main to farq nahi karta... Sab khata Hun... Par pyar se... Aur apne haq ka 
    • Anand Shankar Mishra गाय (और अन्य दुधारू पशुओं) की हत्या के विरुद्ध आवाज़ गांधीजी ने उठायी थी .. आपके अनुसार गांधीजी लोगों को आपस में लडवाना चाहते थे.... ये बात हमारे संविधान में भी है ..http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1452355/
      (वो संविधान जिसे "हम भारत के लोग" ने अपने लिए लिख
      ा है ... केवल हिन्दुओं ने नहीं) 

      हिन्दू संस्कृति क्या है इसपर तो फेसबुक पे बहस नहीं हो सकती ..सो मैं नहीं करूंगा.. 

      गाय और सूअर के सामाजिक स्टेटस में फ़र्क उनके गुणों को देख कर किया गया है .. वो फ़र्क आप स्वाद के लिए नज़रंदाज़ करना चाहो तो करो .. सब खाओ .. ख़ुदा का शुक्र है इंसान ने अपने हक़ के लिए अभी इंसान को मार के खाना शुरू नहीं किया है ..

    • Anando Bhakto Thanks Anand Shankar Mishra for having the guts to raise this publicly... really appreciate...
      22 hours ago · Like · 2
    • Amit Phansalkar Aur sunwar ke baare me aapke kya khayal hai? Bharat me Jain aur anya samudaay maa.ns khaana bhi bura maanate hai. unki sanskriti bharatiya sanskriti nahi hai kya? aur sanskriti ki baat karni hai to manu-sanskriti ka bhi garv karna hai kya? aadmi ko janmse label lagana bhi apni sanskriti hai, jisme nabbe pratishat bhartiyo.n ko sub-human treatment mili hai. aur agar sanskriti ke har pailu ki chikitsa karni hai, to sirf 'sanskriti hai' yeh kaafi nahin hain na?
    • Anand Shankar Mishra Amit आपने वराहावतार के बारे में सुना है?? ये विष्णु का तीसरा अवतार था .. सूअर के रूप में .. तो मेरा ख्याल है कि स्वाद के लिए उसे भी खाना गलत है .. 

      मैंने कब कहा की जैन-संस्कृति भारतीय संस्कृति का अंग नहीं? 
      मनु के बारे में मैंने पढ़ा नहीं है .. सो मैं 
      टिपण्णी नहीं करूंगा.. जितना सुना है बस बुरा ही सुना है मनु स्मृति के बारे में .. पढना होगा..

      जन्म से लेबल लगाना गलत है.. इसका मैं विरोध करता हूँ.. उसपे गर्व करने की जरूरत नहीं .. हरेक संस्कृति में समय के साथ कुरीतियाँ आती हैं .. जरूरत है अच्छे को बुरे से अलग करने की .. (अब मुझसे ये मत पूछने लग्न की क्या अच्छा है क्या बुरा)

      बात यहाँ गौ रक्षा और भारतीय संस्कृति से उसके सम्बन्ध की की मैंने.. लेकिन आप प्रबुद्ध लोग जाति प्रथा और सती प्रथा की बात करने लगे.. मुझसे पूरे भारतीय संस्कृति का ब्यौरा लेने लगे.. आप भी इसी संस्कृति में रहने वाले लोग हो.. स्वयं से प्रश्न भी पूछो..
      21 hours ago · Like · 2
    • Abhinav Kimothi That is why we desperately need constitutional reforms  actually even the framers of the constitution did not prohibit it... they realized it cannot be done... all said and done... i just have one question... is there any logic behind ban on cow slaughter... I mean I can give up eating beef if I see logic... or is it okay to eat chicken and not cow?
      21 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Amit Phansalkar baat yeh hai ki apni sanskriti ka garv karne ke do ang hote hai. itnisi baat hai. garv na karne waale log bhi desh ka patan kar sakte hai (america me varnavaad sanskriti ka garv karne waale logo-ne hi badhaya, aur civil war tak baat aa gayi). gau-raksha bhartiya sanskriti ka ek ang hai. ab woh thik hai ki nahin, uska garv karna hai ki nahi, yeh vyaktigat ho sakta hai. aap ho ki jo garv nahi karte usko desh-patan karne waala bol rahe ho. waise gau-rakshan aaj ke zamaane me kis tarah se desh ke liye mahatvapurna hai uska kripaya kuch gyaan dijiye. jo gaay doodh ke liye injection de-de ke badhayi jaati hai uska rakshan kaun kar raha hai? aur bail ki to baat hi na ki jaaye to accha hai. doodh ke liye gaay ko hamesha pregnant rakhte hai, uske bachade ka doodh cheen ke aadmi ko dete hai. yeh vastusthithi gau-rakhsha karne waale aasani se nazarandaaz karte hai. sirf gau-hatya paap hai. kahe ki sanskriti yaar.
    • Anand Shankar Mishra Abhinav No ..it is not okay to eat animals for taste, be it cow or chicken or lizard. If people eat it for subsistence, it is another matter. This is the whole point and that is the whole logic. Gandhiji used to say "The world has enough for everyone's need for not for everyone's greed."

      Here is one reason why we should consume less of animal products: 
      http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?newsID=20772&CR1=warning#.UayqgtIzNsc

      That said, people will have to decide they want more of dairy products or more of meat or neither or both.


      www.un.org
      Cattle-rearing generates more global warming greenhouse gases, as measured in CO...See More
    • Rahul Ambrish Sahi kaha..Agar is tarah sab apne man ka karte rahe to bahut jaldi hi aadmi ko aadmi khayenge.. kyunki swad ki koi seema nahi.. kisi ko agar gai, suar accha lag sakta hai to kuch aise bhi log honge jinhe aadmi ka maa*s accha lagta hoga.. aur its matter of time.. gai suar khaane waalon ne aadmi ka maa*s shayad taste nahi kiya hai.. agar mil jaaye karne ko to wo bhi accha lag jaayega..
    • Anand Shankar Mishra Amit

      That cow enjoys the status of mother in India is an ideal (because of the various benefits we derive from it). Reality never catches up with ideals. That does not mean that we should give up the ideals. Those who inject cows must not do it for co
      mmercial gains.

      I am not still equipped with the exact knowledge of why one should protect those cows which are no good for milk. There is that emotional argument that you don't throw your mother out of your house when she becomes dependent on you. 

      One can also argue that man possesses the ability to clone cows.. so there is no need to protect cows. Clone it when you need it. Genetic production of animals for meat is a reality now. Do we still need animal rights then? 

      That said, whether cow should still be revered is a difficult question to answer. Until I find the answer, I have the option to fall back on traditional knowledge that our saints gathered thousands of years ago.
    • Amit Phansalkar yeh to aisi baat hui, ki maze ke liye koi agar apni biwi/shauhar ke saath shringar karta hai, to maze ke liye padusi ke saath bhi karega, so maze ke liye khud ke biwi/shauhar ke saath bhi nahin karna chaahiye. btw, that's what some guys seriously believe in. like the christian missionaries from whom Gandhiji picked up lot of "don't".
    • Amit Phansalkar Fair enough @ Ananad. But then is it fair to ask other people to fall back on supposed "wisdom" which might not be relevant in our times.
    • Anand Shankar Mishra Amit There is no proof that the wisdom (which I believe is not supposed but acquired) might not be relevant in current times. More number of times, this wisdom has been recognized by the modern world than being denied. 

      And by the way, neither 
      Abhinav nor you did present any wisdom for eating a cow other than for taste. 

      On that basis, it is okay for me to ask other people to have faith in the Indian culture and its wisdom.
      20 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Amit Phansalkar Anand, you're asking me to curtail my personal freedoms. I don't need to give reasons for sticking to them. You on the other hand need to give reasons as you're taking away my choice. Analogy: if I'm taking away your iPhone, I need to explain why I'm doing it. If I'm using my iPhone, I don't need to. I've nothing against you requesting others from abstaining from doing something. It's the judgmental tone with which you begin, alluding that people who do not have 'garv' in 'sanskriti' end up taking it to doom, and then linking meat eating for taste to it -- is essentially judging. You better have arguments to support that judgement beyond: "xyz said it, we've bee doing it for years, and so on".
    • Amit Phansalkar The one who makes assertive claim has to provide proof. If I say my people believe that there is Coca Cola factory on the other side of the moon, you don't have to provide proof that I'm wrong, till I put forward a case why I think it is (beyond saying my people believe it, so it must be true).
    • Amit Phansalkar For instance, our sanskriti forbids inter-caste marriages. Now do you ask people not to do that based on sanskriti and garv (like a khap panchayat?). And would you say those who do it just for 'love' are not respecting Indian tradition/sanskiti? And that if people have been following these norms, there must be 'some' wisdom in it?
    • Anand Shankar Mishra चूँकि मेरे वाल पर ये चर्चा शुरू हुई.. सो मैं ही इसो कांक्लुड़ करता हूँ .. 

      अभिनव और अमित की ओर से सवाल ये उठा "मुझे कारण दें कि हम गाय को माता मानें और उसे न खाएं"

      मेरे तर्क थे.. 


      १. गाय को उसके गुणों के कारण माता का दर्जा दिया गया था .. स्वाद के लिए गुणों को या उसके माता होने को नजरंदाज करना सही नहीं. एक प्रश्न ये उठा कि जेनेटिक इंजीनियरिंग के इस युग में क्या इस दर्जे की कोई उपयोगिता है? इसपर और चर्चा करने की आवश्यकता है.

      २. भारतीय संस्कृति और उसके ज्ञान की कई बातें आधुनिक युग में सही साबित हुई हैं .. गाय को माता का दर्जा दिए जाने के पीछे क्या कारण थे उनके ऊपर भी और शोध की जरूरत है..लेकिन इस ज्ञान को सीधा नकार देना ठीक नहीं.

      दूध देने लायक नहीं रह जाने के बाद गाय की क्या उपयोगिता रह जाती है इस पर भी प्रश्न उठा .. इस पर मेरा जवाब था की उपयोगिता ख़त्म हो जाने पर किसी पशु को उसके नेचुरल लाइफ से वंचित करना ठीक नहीं.. ठीक उसी प्रकार जिस प्रकार हम बड़े बूढों को घर से बाहर नहीं निकाल देते..

      (एक उत्तर जो अभी मुझे सूझता है वो ये कि गाय के मूत्र में औषधीय गुण होते हैं ..और गोबर में खाद के .. ये दोनों पदार्थ हमें गाय के जीवित रहने तक मिलते हैं .. भले वो दूध दे या न दे)

      यह विषय धर्म और संस्कृति से जुड़ा हुआ है ..इसीलिए संवेदनशील है ..लेकिन चुपचाप गाय को कटता देखना इसका कोई समाधान नहीं.. इस पर चर्चा की आवश्यकता है ..सिर्फ वैज्ञानिक दृष्टिकोण से नहीं, सांस्कृतिक और धार्मिक दृष्टिकोण से भी.

      तब तक के लिए मेरे विचार स्पष्ट हैं .. गाय भारतीय संस्कृति में माता मानी गयी है... स्वाद के लिए उसे खाना ठीक नहीं. दूसरा.. अपनी संस्कृति से प्रश्न पूछिए ..मगर उसका तिरस्कार करके नहीं.
      19 hours ago · Like · 2
    • Amit Phansalkar You've summarized, not concluded .
    • Abhinav Kimothi Ahhh then it's the age old debate between vegetarians and non vegetarians...  it's a lifestyle choice and no one can force it on the other... And cow is not an endangered specie... 
      Talking of un reports... UNICEF or WHO one of the two released a rep
      ort that the global food crisis can be solved if the world started eating insects like people do in east and south east Asia  I would eat all the cows in the world before I eat a grasshopper  but again it is a personal choice...
    • Siddhesh Dhupe Anand bhai, agree with you on everything here.
      Cow is holy and motherly to us. Abhinav sir, 'meri maa gai nahi insan hai' doesn't make sense in this discussion. Considering something motherly is a way to show utmost respect. Shouldn't be taken literall
      y. Hum to desh ko bhi Bharat mata kehte hai. Ab aap kahoge, you don't believe in 'Vande Mataram' too..
      Cow is holy to hindus/jains, and crores of people of this country, and cow slaughter is hurting sentiments of all these people. and for what? satisfying taste buds? itna tuchha reason?
      And to all those who are threatened of loosing their so-called 'freedom', tell me, if i burn Bible or Kuran, just because it is not holy to me, to cook my food (which i can very well do by other means too, ex. using LPG), is that acceptable? I can very well shout that you are taking my freedom away by not allowing me to burn those books.. but I know it doesn't work this way. In a democracy like ours, one needs to practice freedom keeping in mind the social fabric of the country. We are no america/europe who are all single-religion countries, who don't need to care for others while deciding limits of individual freedom.
      sab ko saath me leke chalna hai to adjust karna padta hai.. specifically in cheejo me which are not vital for survival.

      baaki ki debate, ki cow ko motherly kyun manana hai, kyun nahi.. doesn't matter.
      16 hours ago · Edited · Unlike · 1
    • Siddhesh Dhupe aur ye bhi samajh lo, problem aap kya khate ho kya nahi uska nahi hai, gai ko maarne ka hai!
    • Abhinav Kimothi  this has gone out of proportions... I am not commenting on the society... I don't mean to hurt any sentiments... I don't believe in religion, I don't believe in nationalism either... I think these kind of attachments divide more dangerously than the benefits they cause... But what the heck! I don't ask you to give up religion... I would appreciate if you don't ask me to give up my meat...
      16 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2
    • Amit Phansalkar So, basically, if one is (unfortunate enough) to be born in Saudi Arabia, say, as a women, she should not hurt religious sentiments of people by showing her face in public. And of course, if born in India, one should not marry out of caste, for our sanskriti is against it, and it riles people (and what for? a tucchha reason such as love? community me koi mili nahin kya? Who will decide what is "tuccha" after all?). And so on and so forth.
    • Amit Phansalkar http://www.thehindu.com/features/magazine/whats-behind-that-glass-of-milk/article4675921.ece Anyways, my last words on the debate. Anyone who professes that cows should not be eaten because they're sacred, please read this article. After that, please stop drinking milk and eating milk products, unless you're SURE they're derived humanely -- cows raised in idyllic green pastures, by a caring family, who do not constantly impregnate her for milk, and only sell milk that is left after the calf is fed properly, and milk is collected by traditional means, not by electronic pumps. Please, you owe that to your mother. And after you've stopped consuming milk and milk products, just to satisfy your taste buds, we'll restart the discussion. Ciao.

      www.thehindu.com
      The author throws light on some grim details about the cow in India, the world’s largest producer of milk.
    • Anand Shankar Mishra Abhinav You are not just asking the freedom to eat meat. You are asking the freedom to kill an animal. Milk, urine and cow dung can be derived without killing the cow, meat cannot.

      I believe in nationalism and Indian culture. Should not you appreciate
       my freedom to protect the cow? 
      This is not about "I". It is never about I when when the subject pertains to the whole society. We have constitutional freedoms, yet we have restrictions on them. 

      One cannot get away by saying "I don't want to hurt sentiments" and burning the "Gita/Koran" at the same time (using Siddhes's argument).
    • Anand Shankar Mishra Amit

      Things are wrong with the ways cows are milked. Agreed. But eating cows is not going to solve that problem. 

      Don't you consume milk products? Even if you do not regard the cow as your mother, is not it your responsibility as well to make sure th
      e milk you consume comes after a better treatment of cows? 

      The Hindu article that you mentioned also says cows are slaughtered mercilessly. Is not it logical therefore that you should stop eating beef and make sure it is done in a more "merciful" way? (Denying an animal its right to live is itself an act of cruelty. I don't know how one is going to find a merciful way to eat beef!)

      Will you stop consuming beef if everything is made right in the way milk is derived from cow? If no, its not a valid argument in this debate.

      Gandhiji said : "Cow slaughter can never be stopped by law. Knowledge, education, and the spirit of kindliness towards her alone can put and end to it." Likewise, motherly regard for cow can never be instilled by law.
      7 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Abhinav Kimothi By 'I', I mean a substantial section of the population who believes in this. It pains me to see how increasingly intolerant the world around me is becoming. It is hypocritical when people say we don't eat meat because it harms the animals but domesticate the same animals for purposes of labour, dairy, protection etc. If people are so concerned about the rights of animals, why domesticate them?
      I don't give a damn whatever so called 'holy' book one burns. It doesn't affect me. It doesn't affect a lot of people like me. But it is people like me who get in the cross fire. 
      You can fight for animal rights. But giving it a religious/social picture burns bridges between sections of society. People like me don't want it. Hate it.
      Now you can ignore us, disregard us. Unfortunately we can't, we are constantly in the midst of some battle that we don't want to be a part of.
      You and me are at different points in our ideologies. I will continue to fight for my free will and you will continue to fight for your beliefs. Let me tell you neither of us is going to be a winner. I just hope none of us gets hurt.
      7 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1
    • Anand Shankar Mishra Abhinav As long as you keep eating beef, you can't be ignored. Regarding the hurt thing, I hope the same.
    • Amit Phansalkar Oh no, it's more than relevant. Gandhiji would first make the change and then ask others to make changes. So anyone who is asking others to make a lifestyle change should first make sure they're above reproach. No argument till that point. Sorry. It's plain old hypocrisy otherwise.
    • Amit Phansalkar And on book burning: I don't see why that should be such an issue, if the one burning the book owns it (especially for a self-contained motive - like fuel for bonfire, say -- not a deliberate snub against someone). Hell, all these years it's religious people who've burned more books (as a deliberate snub, mind you, not to roast meat on bonfire) than atheists like me. If someone burns Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion, I'd not give a damn. I'd not come on streets and burn/damage private/public property. Those feats are typically done by people too proud of their 'culture' and 'beliefs (typically religious, camouflaged as cultural)'. We the humanists are quite confident about our beliefs to be hurt by someone contradicting them, thank you. Burn all the humanist books for all I care, and we'd just look at you with amusement. You see, for us what's sacred is freedom of choice, not books and beliefs. It's more meta. So what you're taking away is VERY sacred to us.
    • वैभव सिंह Society is like a big family. We have different kind of families conservative, moderate, liberal etc. For a family to live in harmony the members should respect each other and each others feeling. Of course it should be mutual.
    • Siddhesh Dhupe @Abhinav sir -
      1. even if u don't mean to, you are.
      2. religion is nothing but a way of life. So in that sense, what you essentially mean to say is, you don't believe in any "known" religion. I believe in hinduism as my way of life, you believe in "#$#
      @" as your way of life.. call it anything. it may not have a concept of creator, no Gods.. nothing. just your version of how to lead your life. Perfectly fine.
      3. and in this sense, even I am not asking you to start following a "known" religion or stop following your own version of it. I am just saying, you respect my way of life, and I respect yours.
      4. So now coming to respecting each others ways of life, I am not asking you to give up on your meat. I am just saying, don't kill the animal. In fact you are not killing it directly, you are generating the demand for it to be killed.
      5. Just like you have freedom to choose what you eat, I have freedom to protect the cow (as Anand said). Conflict!
      6 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    • Amit Phansalkar You'd rather we take the meat off the animal without killing it?
    • Siddhesh Dhupe @Amit ji -
      4. so you presented three cases - women showing face in public, inter-caste marriage and killing cows.
      5. To me, taking life of any living being "in an extremely painful and brutal way" (yes that is important - 
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmEXH28SeSY, people with weak heart, don't watch this video. @Abhinav, @Amit - do watch) is way more severe than women showing face in public and inter-caste marriage.
      6. But as you asked, who will decide what is tuchha and what is not.. well, neither you nor me individually, but all of us mutually. If we are to trust instincts of a child (who doesn't understand religion or society), killing someone who gives you so much throughout her life and who is no hazard to humanity in any sense, so brutelly, and eat it later.. is so so inappropriate! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fRNNzMZgrzs)
      7. Our constitution says that women showing face in public and inter-caste marriage, both are acceptable. I respect that. It also asks to prohibit cow slaughter and expect every Indian citizen to respect that.


      www.youtube.com
      muslim ko bi kantana with all hindu
    • Anand Shankar Mishra Amit 

      Freedom of choice is not an absolute right. It comes with restrictions. Let us restrict ourselves to cows than discussing free will.
    • Siddhesh Dhupe @amit let the animal live natural life, die naturally. Then go satisfy ur taste buds if u wish to 
      6 hours ago via mobile · Like
    • Anand Shankar Mishra By the way, I am not a religious man either. I don't go to temples or pray. I have only one chant:
      ॐ सर्वे भवन्तु सुखिनः
      सर्वे सन्तु निरामयाः ।
      सर्वे भद्राणि पश्यन्तु
      मा कश्चिद्दुःखभाग्भवेत् ।

      ॐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ॥

      (And I take pride in stating that my culture teaches me that.)

      However, it does not mean that I can stop caring about who burns whose holy books. "I don't care" is never a solution. Indian culture cares about even atheism otherwise all atheists would be dead by now. So does our constitution which has the imprints of our culture.

      My point is to care. You want to eat beef, eat it. I am not saying you cannot. When the cow dies of natural causes, eat all of it!
      6 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Amit Phansalkar That's quite a nice trap there. How does one know that the cow died of natural cause. Most meat eating species (except for scavengers -- who have more robust stomachs/digestive systems, unlike humans) prefer to eat meat of a healthy, living organism. It's safer. Now you want me to risk eating a diseased animal so that your sacred beliefs which you can't prove are very relevant in current time are protected. Sorry, that's not caring too much about me. It's always religious people's beliefs which seem to afford them a better negotiating position. Your example of people caring about atheists being proved by their being alive is such a patently horrible example that I shudder at it. So the concession that religious people are giving us is not killing us? And for that we should now respect their every fancy? Fantastic. If this is your idea of caring about other people, then what can I add?
    • Anand Shankar Mishra Abhinav

      You talked about the world becoming intolerant. Do you know about "aghori" tantriks of India? (Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghori#Cannibalism)

      India culture is tolerant enough to permit even cannibalism in some form! 
      Is it okay for the Aghoris to demand to kill human beings for them to eat? Absolutely not. Such freedom of choice has to be restricted in my opinon.


      en.wikipedia.org
      The Aghoris distinguish themselves from other Hindu sects and priests by their a...See More
    • Amit Phansalkar Non-sequitur. Freedom of choice is relevant with freedom of life. Dead people don't have choices. So by definition there can be no freedom of choice for everyone where the choice involves killing other people. Now whether to include animals (which), plants (which), fungi (which), bacteria and viruses (which), in the 'circle' for whom the special freedom is afforded, is a larger debate. And that cannot be based on religious beliefs, but more on sustainability and other issues that are relevant to survival of our planet/species. For there cannot be a debate when there is religion involved because all one side keeps saying is "but I believe that", as if that's a valid statement in a debate. It's NOT. Sorry.
    • Anand Shankar Mishra Amit

      Why is it horrible? 

      The culture cares about you atheists by allowing you to live a normal life in the society. It cares about people like me who openly say they are not religious by allowing us the right to say that! 

      So do we by allowing the religious people to practice and profess their religions. 

      My point was that you and I and the religious beings have the right to live with some dignity without agreeing with each other. But you misinterpreted it and thought it was horrible.
    • Anand Shankar Mishra Amit
      Similarly, there cannot be a debate when there is one side saying "but it tastes good" !
    • Amit Phansalkar Allowing? Doesn't that sound rather arrogant. So we atheist also allow religious people to live and let them practice their irrational beliefs (except at our expanse -- that's when we put down the foot). Now why do you want more? You want your irrational beliefs at our expense? Why? How do you care about us, pray tell me, when you want to dictate how we live? It's not your cows that we're killing. It's of those who do not believe it's a sacred creature. You can raise as many cows as you want anywhere, and say these are for milk only. No one will come and kill them. But there are bunch of others who don't think they're sacred. Raise them for meat and kill them. What gives you the right to dictate to them? And see how conveniently you've bypassed the issue of cruelty to sacred animal for milk products. Are you going to stop having all milk products a la-vegan. At least if you believe in what you're preaching, that's the first step you must take. First do, then preach. At least you believe they're sacred. How can you feed off their misery? We don't believe they're sacred, so it's another thing for us.
    • Abhinav Kimothi Siddhesh Bhai - I am not religious... I am spiritual  
      Anand - I take your argument that killing animals might be wrong to some people and I respect their views despite not agreeing with them... But! Stopping cow slaughter in the name of Indian cultu
      re is sectarian and provocative... It means that Indians who have been eating beef for generations are suddenly not a part of this culture... 

      So if you want to stop animal killing for meat... I respect your words... But why specifically cow and why use Indian culture as a medium... It is then when a person like me feels like - hang on! I have been eating beef... Are you trying to suggest I am not a part of Indian culture? Or whatever I am doing is anti-cultural?
      Do you see the difference?
      5 hours ago via mobile · Unlike · 1
    • Anand Shankar Mishra Amit
      No, I will not go vegan suddenly. It is not the first step that I should take. I believe milk is important for my survival because of its benefits. What I am going to do is to lessen my consumption of milk. I will not drink tea because that I drin
      k for taste. I will not eat rosogullas and other sweets made of milk. That is what I am going to do. This is my vow for the cow.

      Let me add. I will consume such items only when I am sure they have not been derived through cruel means. Till then, no tea, no milk sweets.
    • Anand Shankar Mishra Abhinav

      Yes, I see the difference.
      I never intended to say those eating beef are not part of Indian culture. I invoked the Indian culture because a larger part of India shares the sacred view of cow than those who don't.

      The intent behind my status message is not to rile religious (or atheist's) sentiments but to raise a voice for protection of cows.
      5 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Anand Shankar Mishra Amit
      Thank you for motivating me to do something for the holy cow.
    • Amit Phansalkar Actually I don't believe beef tastes good - at least most that comes from the commercial food chain (which is practically all). I don't eat it for that reason alone . BTW, I'm not sure the milk that we get in market really helps us in any way. So I don't think nutritionally it's necessary to have milk products. In fact human beings is the only animal I know who drinks milk of another animal. Most nutrients we get through milk (and with current food chain, that's hardly anything) can be obtained from other food sources -- mostly plants. So dairy is as much a "lifestyle" or "food-preference", as meat.
    • Anand Shankar Mishra I must also mention this since I do it and others might do it as well.

      In my residential area in Delhi, a guy comes with his cart collecting food for cow. I don't throw away my food in the waste but give it to him. Sometimes, out of love, I also eat less so that the cows could have more. 

      Whether you consume milk or beef, I think this act does not harm any religious/atheist sentiments and people can adopt it.
      5 hours ago · Like

      • Anand Shankar Mishra This is what Osho had to say on this... 

        "So I am not interested in the agitation for banning cow slaughter by law; it is absurd and stupid. It is a sheer waste of time and energy. I am interested in something else: I want Science to put its energy in
        to the creation of synthetic food so that man is freed from meat- eating........

        I don’t suggest that cow slaughter should not and cannot go. It can go. Not only can the killing of cow, all kinds of killings go. But then we will have to take a revolutionary step in the direction of our food and food habits. I am not in favor of cow slaughter but I am also not in favor of those who shootout against it. All their talk is sheer nonsense. They don’t have a correct perspective and a right plan to stop cow slaughter. But it must stop; the cow should be the last animal to be killed. She is the highest in animal evolution; she is the connecting link between man and animal. She deserves all our care and compassion; we are connected with her in an innate and intimate manner. We have to take every care for her."

        You an read it here: http://www.oshoworld.com/onlinemag/march13/htm/Osho_in_News.asp

        I invoke culture because I believe in its power. Not in all respects (dowry, sati, caste discrimination etc) but in many aspects.
        www.oshoworld.com
        It’s a fine way to arrive at the brink of enlightenment, says Osho Boredom and l...See More